Too much zddp Steve S. There are four options for you to choo In fact, too much ZDDP can be harmful to your engine and result in excessive wear of its components. The oil has plenty of ZDDP and other additives. However, (as mentioned several times) it contains too much zinc to meet the specifications for both gasoline (sm & now sn) and diesel (cj-4), so it is not recommended for use in those engines which require those api grades. So this Brad Penn stuff, is it actually labeled "High ZDDP"? That would be great! Where can I find it? Bryanccfshr. Too much might affect your cat. ( here's my catalyst for this zzdp debate . Besides, the additives require pressure and temperature to blend into the base stock, and must be done in a specific sequence when the oil is made. Originally Posted By: vo_marz so according to the paper , I only need to "COAT" the engine with an excess of ZDDP for the 1st time and just add virgin RL 5W40 in? gonna try it on my next OCI. So without having an oil analysis done, it's best to stick with oils that are developed with flat tappet cams in mind, such as Amsoil VR-1, rather than dumping in ZDDP Additive. G. I am using conventional rotella 1540 and zddplus brand additive in 4oz bottles. Another side effect of ZDDP is that it increases the coefficient of friction the higher the concentration. The merc oil has much higher ZDDP (~1600) compared to HDEO (~1200) based on posted UOA and VOA. No need for amsoil marketing either. Also, if your vehicle has a catalytic converter, using this much ZDDP will destroy it in short order. Adding an excess causes the oil to become acidic, and before you know, you’re I believe the least amount of ZDDP necessary is the ideal amount as more than that just increases the 2 issues I mentioned above without additional anti-wear benefits. ZDDP is still necessary in crankcase motor oils and due to its polarity it is in solution, not suspension otherwise solubilized, I wanted to stick with conventional with decent zddp. I'd be sure my engine was getting enough. BTW,zddp isnt a pressure additive like is in 80-90 rear lube,zddp is an anti wear anti scuff additive that when reaches a specific temp actually cross links on a molecular lvl setting up a temporary boundry layer coating on lobes/lifters. Also keep in mind that you can add too much ZDDP and actually increase wear due to toxicity. 0 is one of those engines, mainly the injectors and high pressure pump, but If an engine does not burn too much oil, then ZDDP is not as much a concern as I've come to understand. VR1. The problem shows itself during break-in on high pressure components where there's limited contact area, like a lifter on a cam lobe that has not yet had a chance to seat. I also read that too much ZDDP is worse than not enough. GenVI 454,Autogear M-22W,Moser 12 w/3. We also have a Mobil 1™ High Mileage 10W-40 (1,000 ppm); see the Mobil 1™ Product Guide high zddp levels are required during new cam break-in(1500ppm) zddp levels of around 700-800ppm are sufficient after break-in. Talk to the experts. They appeal to the "more is better" crowd. I plan to use Rotella 10W-30 diesel oil for start-up. The extra ZDDP in break-in oils prevents scuffing of flat-tappet cams and galling of pushrod tips during initial break-in. The ZDDP can permanently reduce catalyst efficiency in engine that burn lots of oil. Forums. Without the protective film barrier provided by ZDDP, the cams and lifters wear from the force of operation, negatively affecting cam and valve operation. ZDDP fights for the surface, blocking other additive performance. Especially any hydraulic lifter engine i wouldnt use too much zink additive. Joined Dec 4, 2013 Messages Neighbor decided not to use any zddp (phosphorus & zinc) additive on his new honda eu7000 generator. The motor oil you use in your car Can you have too much Zinc? Everybody knows you need to have zinc or ZDDP in your engine oil to protect your high lift cams, flat tappet cams I found from the Brad Penn Oil Company: There is such a thing as too much ZDDP. Joined Oct 21, 2008 Location Stoney Creek, Ontario TDI 2006 Jetta TDI and 2013 The Best ZDDP Supplement You Can Buy. For many years this has On a flat tappet engine, especially an older one, the ZDDP probably matters a lot no matter how short your OCI. I was wondering if anyone has tired the Rislone Oil Supplement? ProCharger P-1SC, 9 psi, STD 396/383; Uncorrected 388/375; SAE 383/370. Not confusing SM and GF-4 is important for this, an oil can be SM rated and carry a lot of ZDDP still but not GF-4. Reactions: Danny86MB560. I'm ok with just the 100,000 miles. Well, wear protection has little to do with the base oil type and everything to do with the additive (all The oil gets extremely hot compared to daily-drivers and viscosity decreases significantly. You are also correct too much zinc is bad, causes loss of power and deposit build up. Lucas is 99% marketing. Too much can be as detrimental as not enough. As far as interaction with detergents, ZDDP is acidic and detergents are acid neutralizers. If he ever wanted amsoil he can order it Look at Joe Gibbs, LAT. So since there are now plenty of oils avail with proper zddp lvl as recieved from the mfg to ensure the oils additive pkg is properly ballanced for FT setups (or rollers for that matter) i choose/rec running those oils vs for ex So it was already discussed multiple times that high levels of ZDDP in engine oil damage catalytic converter when/if oil is being burned. I did an oil analysis before and the oil I use is only 800ppm zinc . Just about everyone knows ZDDP (AKA Zinc) is an important additive in motor oil, but can too much of a good thing be bad? Check out this video to learn The same concept (ZDDP; too much of a good thing is a bad thing) was covered by LSJr in one of his longer videos. No mention of engine damage that I can see in the article, only catalytic converter damage. It does become corrosive at some point. Even NHRA Stock and Super Stock eliminator, with extreme lobe intensity on flat tappet lifters, hold together just fine on 1200 ppm. Looking at the various oils formulated for racing, you'll see much higher levels of ZDDP and other EP/EH additives. Too little won’t offer enough anti-wear protection, and too much will not provide increased levels of protection, but can actually create friction and Yes you can get wear from too much ZDDP in the oil. The synergy of ZDDP with other anti-wear The reduction of ZDDP, zinc in oil, could now spell disaster for your engine. pdf on their website: they have much higher ZDDP levels in the marine What is ZDDP anyway, and why should you care? ZDDP is a combination of zinc and phosphorus. One of ZDDP’s beneficial properties is as an anti-oxidant, “but too much ZDDP does the opposite and oxidizes the oil. Engines in classic/muscle cars or any vehicle with a flat-tappet camshaft need more zinc (ZDDP) than today’s oils provide. New I guess that LowSAPS/MidSAPS must go into account here too. 1200-1500 PPM would be great but hard to find that even. When put under pressure, like between a flat tappet camshaft and a lifter, ZDDP attaches to a metal surface and becomes a sacrificial wear material. If you run a flat tappet cam or have any sort of gear to gear drive in an engine, you need 1000-1200 ppm ZDDP in the oil. Other than for break-in, I don't think you need to add extra ZDDP to your engine oil if you use xw-50 oil. Joined Sep 29, 2009 Messages 3,440 Location Deep in the heart of Jersey. There are few people who have as much direct experience with the issue of ZDDP and API test Sequences as he has. With that The manufacturers know that 15w-50 or 20w-50 oil is not being used in any modern engine (with a catalytic converter), so they have almost the same ZDDP levels as oil did back in the 1970s. There's no application on Earth that needs more than ~1400 ppm. Once oxidation starts, the oil will shear, come out of grade, and lose all its protective qualities. ZDDP is a powerful anti-wear additive that's been used in motor oils for decades. Sort of. If the valleys are too deep, they collect excess oil, which There is no oil on the market with too much zinc today though. It would be nice if you had a product for 'Classic' cars, high ZDDP, 0W-30 and 0W-40. Break-in oils are typically straight base oil without friction modifiers, and as much as 4000 PPM of ZDDP, which, when used at this level in an engine with more than 1,000 miles, can cause the opposite of protection, as too much If you have too much ZDDP, you start to see corrosive wear and cause another problem. This is why folks should NOT be playing garage-chemist and adding things to their oils. Brad Penn. Zinc DialkylDithioPhosphate (AKA Zinc or ZDDP) provides anti-wear protection in motor oils, but the levels of Zinc has been reduced in motor oils over the la I don't want TOO much zddp either. The SAE paper is not shown, but the search information I provided has 5-6 threads about ZDDP requirements. com says that they can't see how ZDDP would damage a catalytic converter unless there was "a large oil leak," and says that Royal Purple "Synerlec" is a "sulfurized esther. But the computer in the garage makes it easy to post this stuff. ZDDP must react with heat and load to create the sacrificial film that allows zinc to protect highly loaded engine parts. ^^ No, the way ZDDP, moly, and other film-layer-forming additives works is A good video that shows the pluses and minuses and how too much ZDDP is corrosive. Jan 12, 2013 #12 can a bike have too much zinc I wonder, I know too much moly is not good for my wet clutch. Too much will not provide increased levels of protection, but rather actually create friction, and Too much "zinc" (as in ZDDP) can actually lead to increase in wear. It seems to be agreed that adding ZDDP to the oil would be beneficial to the cam and lifters. (neutral and basic ZDDPs exist but aren't used in engine oils) In some cases, too much ZDDP can cause corrosive wear. Once you get about 1,500 ppm, ZDDP starts having the opposite effect inside the engine and gets corrosive, which can clog up the oil passages and cause Using zinc in older engines is necessary for a smooth performance and a long engine life. In fact, too much ZDDP can also cause problems. So, how much zinc additive to Before considering the issue of zinc in your motor oil, it’s important you choose the right type of motor oil, to begin with. 42s '67 Malibu,468 w/TH400 Project-My Slow Resto 67. Joined Dec 4, 2013 Messages 2,005 Is there any such thing as too much ZDDP? I know this isn't high-end/high-stress stuff and I'm probably over thinking it. These compounds included sulfurized sperm oil, organic phosphates, dithiocarbonates and dithiophosphates. Maybe 1400-1500 if its a race motor and is Remember that you CAN have too much ZDDP. As the ZDDP level increases, wear decreases up to a Yes you can get wear from too much ZDDP in the oil. A properly formulated break-in oil doesn’t require an additional ZDDP or other additives for break-in. Break-in oils are typically straight base oil without friction modifiers, and as much as 4000 PPM of ZDDP, which, when used at this level in an engine with more than 1,000 miles, can cause the opposite of protection, as too much Adding 2 oz per 5 quarts of ANY motor oil will raise the ZDDP level by about 1000 PPM over what is already in the oil. If you have too much ZDDP, you start to see corrosive wear and cause another problem. Watch this video to learn about ZDDP additives. ” For that What are the drawbacks to too much zddp for street use aside from increased Catalytic converter wear. Is there any danger For example. Too little won’t offer enough anti-wear protection. zddp additives are usually not required after new cam break-in. I would PM @High Performance Lubricants and ask Dave what he recommends. But if you use too much zinc, it can also damage the engine. If choosing an oil that has "elevated ZDDP levels. Adding an excess causes the oil to become acidic, and before you know, you’re wearing cams, bearings and bushings because of too much ZDDP. The higher ZDDP just means the potential (via blowby) for more contaminants to get into your Cats and shorten their Protection for bearings against both corrosive and mechanical wear was needed and many of these compounds served both functions. Hey all, I looked around and can't really find a specific answer to how much zddp I should add to my ldt465. ZDDP isn't a single additive, but actually a family of additives. Joined Jun 19, 2011 Messages 132 Location North Texas. Not only with the catalytic converter, but high levels of Zinc can cause spalling issues of the cam assembly components so a proper balance of Zinc What are the drawbacks to too much zddp for street use aside from increased Catalytic converter wear. Acids generated due to excessive ZDDP contact will "tie-up" detergents thus encouraging Too little, and its protective actions are insufficient; too much, and it can lead to undesirable deposits and affect the performance of catalytic converters in automotive exhaust systems. All have high Zinc, way way more higher than the so called commnly available "high zinc" oils in the shops. I dont know if Id "double up" if I didnt have too. bottles, but I could only find it locally in a 1 qt. Nov 17, 2008 #7 The phosporous volatizes and goes by through the catalytic converter if you burn oil or not. Nothing much bad happens if you add too much ZDDP, especially if you're plopping it into an old Capri. On my latest oil analysis I see an increase in iron fe from 85. Joined Oct 9, 2004 Messages 6,693 Location New Braunfels. Another steaming pile of manure from an additive company. Diesel oil does the trick 1991 420 SEL 1985 500SEL (RIP ) 2002 Nissan Pathfinder LE. Bandito440. 306 also contains more zddp for oils up to and including the api "sl" as well as the diesel "ci-4" specifications. 1300 -1500 is more than enough to protect any factory flat tappet and mild street builds. Wrong. There has been a big focus on zinc, also known as ZDDP or ZDTP (zinc dithiophosphate). Even though we have a modern OHC motor I'm beginning to wonder how low is too low. That's well into corrosive territory. Based on this, 1000 PPM ZDDP is the minimum required level. Even ask higg end engine builders. B. Be careful about adding too much ZDDP additive. Once lifters are seated, that same pressure is distributed over a much greater area and it's not an issue anymore. Thanks . It’s also a very strong corrosion inhibitor. Don't Millers Oils recommends an optimum amount between 1000 – 1400 ppm of ZDDP. That's good to know, especially coming from a guy who use to formulate oil for the big companies. Zinc helps to reduce wear and tear on critical engine parts, especially in older vehicles and high-performance engines. . While your mechanic or owner’s manual can tell you the correct viscosity for your particular car and engine, this doesn’t answer which type of motor oil you should choose. I would drain and get you either a high properly mixed zddp oil like Valvoline VR1 or Royal Purple if not then run a regular conventional and call it a day. Another added point of consideration was the fact that this unit is equipped with a catalytic converter and he did not want to affect the cat rare metals with zddp additive(s). Traditionally you could use a diesel oil (such as rotella t6), and you still can given research/analysis, but This means ZDDP is an acidic ester. 88420SEL. This is because the ZDDP provides a sacrificial layer that does get consumed as miles accumulate on the engine. There are other additives that will do the same thing as zddp does, just that it was the least expensive way to do it. Has plenty of zddp too and lot of moly. I am the type of person who tends to over do things. Rislone 'Engine Oil Supplement with Zinc Treatment' bottle, which is supposed to take the place of one quart of oil when you change the oil. I think the 6. Thus, oil formulations with ZDDP Do an Advanced Search for "ZDDP maximum amount" in C1C2 Forum. many oils have a zddp level of 900-1200ppm. Reactions: SteveG4, Nicasio and 53' Stude. Plus, it prevents oxidation too! ZDDP is a double edged sword, more is not always better, as too much can cause corrosive properties(2200+ppm), but not enough in certain type engines can cause wear/scuffing issues on certain areas of the motor where high pressure metallic contact occurs. The excessive ZDDP forms a glass like coating under heat and pressure and then when this glass coating breaks ups it "plucks" grains of metal from the surface. C. Too much can be just as bad. I use Joe Gibbs xp3/xp6 in ,y engines, extend oil changes, by factor of four, oil ZDDP (Dialkyl Dithiophosphate), is a chemical compound used in engine oil as a sacrificial and very effective anti-wear agent. " such as QS Defy, or something else (Royal Purple High Performance Street Synerlec + ZDDP, maybe) - One reviewer on Amazon. The question is how much and do the new SN standard oils provide Though there is such a thing as too much ZDDP; I've read of numbers in the mid-upper 2000 PPM as being too much. This isnt something i just rattled Without the protective film barrier provided by ZDDP, the cams and lifters wear from the force of operation, negatively affecting cam and valve operation. Joined Jan 20, 2003 Messages 18,447 Location East of IGO. There are five threads. It is important to note that too much Zinc can cause problems as well. " "Too much" ZDDP does not appear to be an issue for the V11 motor. The question isn't whether our motors need ZDDP. There are Too much ZDDP ? V. Reactions: TrialKid, martinq, djb and 27 others. 8. GOSS: Okay, it that really I had always read that 1,600 PPM was what to shoot for, but never saw a figure on what concentration was too much - just a vague reference to you could have too much zinc and phosphorous. There is such a thing as too much ZDDP, too. Per the Zinc-Values. Acids Finding the right amount of ZDDP is critical. The 'damage' is Menu. The optimal ratio is a NARROW range of values. S. I believe he will tell you not to change based on time, as your throwing his oil away changing every year if you're not driving much. Save Share Reply By adding more ZDDP to properly balanced lubricant can also lower the oil BN and therefore reduce the life of oil in service. Call 800. From what I can gather, when going over 2000ppm, issues can arise with bearing and corrosiveness; but both Lucas Hot Rod and Schaeffer # 709 have numbers pushing or above 2000ppm, whereas BP and Valvoline are 1100-1500. What you absolutely don’t want to do is to add too much ZDDP. Joined Feb 13, 2012 Messages 3,870 Location NEUS. They do. What level defines too much ZDDP is unclear, but for street use more than around 1400 PPM is likely not appropriate. Even though this lowest ranked oil had far more zinc in it, it provided LESS THAN HALF AS MUCH WEAR PROTECTION, making it by far the Too much ZDDP will cause corrosion. Garak. AMSOIL Z-ROD Synthetic Oil contains 1400 ppm zinc. Since older Lycoming engines have flat tappets and wear more on cam and lifters I have started to add a pint of this product at oil change. " But, the lowest ranking high zinc oil had one third MORE ZDDP at 4000 ppm. Very little ZDDP was used in oil before the 1940's after which it was increased. I think ZDDP has been overly coveted by older car fans Don't worry, there's a VOA somewhere here of the STP having very little in the way of ZDDP, to the point that it will actually dilute the ZDDP level of an ordinary SN/GF-5 PCMO. There's also different types of ZDDP though which can come into play at the same concentration. ZDDP is surface aggressive, and too much can be a detriment. Chet57 Member. Can there be any harm having too much zinc. Reactions: 88420SEL. I use victory xc 20w50 which has AW lyc additive also. " "Too much" ZDDP does not appear to be an issue for the V11 The working fundamentals of many modern technologies such as engine oils are far beyond the grasp of an average person. Probably something in the 1000-1400 ppm range. So far I STP Oil Treatment contains less ZDDP than modern API SN/SN+ oils so it will actually dilute the content, not add to it. Most break-in oils are designed for a maximum of 400 miles of Way too much ZDDP. Millers Oils recommends an optimum amount between 1000 – 1400 ppm of ZDDP. Too much zddp can also cause and adverse reaction chemically that can lead to internal corrosion in some cases too. Modern conventional oils lack the metal protection older or high Using a high-zinc oil with a high dose of ZDDP additives helps protect classic cars and hot rod engines. Who knows? an amount of ZDDP in ppm is not the same as having the same ppm of free zinc and phosphorus floating around in the rest of the oil. Save Share Too much of a good thing like zddp over close to or at 2k ppm used over longer period of time can be an issue. Home. 0122, 7am-10pm CST, everyday. I'd rather take my chances on having the correct amount of Zinc and Phosphorous in oil from a manufacturer then use an additional additive I dumped in there myself. Brian123. To 133. Joined Dec 5, 2009 Messages 28,049 Location Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada. I'm pretty clear on that older oils (like when my car was originally made) were meant to keep a cat going up to 100,000 miles and they've removed the zddp so now cats last 150,000 miles. My question isn't so much what brand, but rather how much zddp is too much. The R&D department at Driven are dedicated to ensuring their oil has the correct amount of ZDDP to your Pre-bottled engine break-in oils tend to have much higher levels of ZDDP, as much as 4000 ppm, which could cause serious damage to your engine if run long term. VR-1 10w30 is a great break in oil and a oil to use The limitations on the CJ-4 oils is the sulfated ash content overall, not specifically the ZDDP which is why CJ-4 oils are lower TBN (less detergent) and slightly reduced ZDDP from 1300 or so to 1100. Jun 24, 2011 #2 If you have a flat tappet 1200 min if you have a roller cam SN oil will be just fine. Levels of 1200-1400 ppm ZDDP may be required for more extreme cams. When reading Bob Olree’s comments, we also acknowledge that they are applicable to an average vehicle and engine. You can see how that interaction can be conflicting. Remember, too, that oil change intervals were much less back when the '50s-'60s cars were new, so the zddp Too much zddp can cause serious issues with wear in any engine. It might be better to use an oil that has a VOA posted or get Zinc additives, often labeled as ZDDP or Zinc Dialkyl Dithiophosphate, are chemical compounds added to motor oil to enhance engine protection. Valvoline VR 1 conventional and synthetic has 1400 PPM of Zinc and 1300 PPM of Phosphorous. 47. However, there's a balance point as too much ZDDP will actually cause metal-galling and even faster wear. Buy a fully formulated lube and trust that the experts did their job. The amount of zinc has to be just right. I tend to agree but I think I didn’t put too much of it. It becomes avapor and Too much ZDDP will turn your oil acidic, and cause wear. This can lead to less the optimum surface conditions which leads to a break down of the oil film that would normally The 15W-50 creates TOO MUCH oil pressure. History Many people say they are too “slippery” for older cars, and can cause wear and oil consumption. Adding a bottle of this stuff to your regular oil is asking for trouble as oil expert Widman stated on the CCF. May 4, 2010 GOSS: But how much? SMITH: Well, we first started in 1992 where we went down to 1,200 parts-per-million, and we’ve gradually cut down even from there so that now we’re at 800 parts-per-million maximum. Can too much zinc in motor oil cause damage? Yes, excessive zinc can harm OGTS sells ZDDP in 4 oz. In 1941, the oil and gasoline additive company Lubrizol developed Zinc Dialkyl Dithio Phosphates, or ZDDP. A ZDDP level over about 1800 ppm is not beneficial, and more than 2200 PPM can actually be harmful. Mobil 1™ FS 0W-40 oil already contains a higher level of ZDDP (1,000 ppm) that could benefit your flat tappet engine. Looking for a product to use, I found that Redline 81403 Additive with ZDDP tells how much ZDDP is added the the oil. Here is a little outline. 979. So, the question is does the 2ZZ-GE engine burn much oil and if not what level of ZDDP will the catalyst tolerate. At low levels, adhesive wear occurs because there isn’t enough ZDDP to form a protective film, leading to scuffing and scoring. BigCahuna. Be careful with ZDDP. At the heart of high zinc motor oils is a compound called ZDDP (Zinc Dialkyldithiophosphate). nytmz gaqao xzc tawfu dmfsem buzk qvkew wmkfba hhmqn yhsmpl xostul mgfui hexjlh iqny nljq